Interview

Kiev, Ukraine, 30 June 2010

Interview to the YoGa Magazine

Question: What is the source of Kriya Yoga shared by Guruji?

Origin of Kriya Yoga The origin is times immemorial. And the sages have been talking about it for thousands and thousands of years. This Kriya Yoga is the only Yoga which is mentioned by name in Patanjali Yoga Sutra. Out of 196 sutras that is the only Yoga mentioned by name. All other “yogas” are latter-day manifestation of the mind and its machination and mania and manipulations and mischiefs. And it is saying that: “tapaḥ svādhyāy-eśvarapraṇidhānāni kriyā-yogaḥ”, which means this Kriya Yoga also has a Trinity. The Trinity in the western world is God, Son of God and Holy Ghost. And in ancient humanity it is Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara. And in Kriya Yoga it is Swadhyaya, Tapas, Ishvara-pranidhana. For the sake of poetry they have said “tapas, swadhyaya, ishvarapranidhana”, but the thing is “swadhyaya, tapas, ishvarapranidhana”. Swadhyaya is the beginning.

Swadhyaya

This means waking up to the activities of the separative psyche – the “I” – and how this is always giving continuity to itself. And this is what is covering up the Intelligence. This “I” is the chitta-vritti, Intelligence is the Chaitanya. And the activities, the super-activity of the “I” does not allow the Chaitanya to surface. The Chaitanya can be translated as Intelligence. That is the closest translation. And this “Intelligence” word is with the capital “I”. It is not the “shoddy-little-intelligence” which is understood by the psychologists and the people in general. It is not cunningness, cleverness and all the intellectual over-activities. This is not that! This is a dimension of awareness, which is holistic, which has no fragmentation, which has no division. This is the dimension of Intelligence, the Chaitanya! This holistic awareness is not corrupted by choices, by likes-dislikes, preference-aversion, justification-condemnation – it is not affected by such corruptions. The word “corruption” comes from the word “rupture”. Rupture means broken up. Corruption is something which is broken up, split, divided, fragmented. In this awareness there is no corruption, there is no conformity. There is no conforming and becoming. There is only “Is-ness” – existence, not “I-ness” – egocentric activity! Not egocentric activity! This awareness is not available to any intimidation or influence. This awareness is nobody and yet everybody! And this is Intelligence, this is Chaitanya. And this “I”, the “me-me-me”, the self-centered activities, always hovering around. The “I” and its all kinds of pursuits and paradoxes and prejudices and pressures. This “I” is chitta-vritti. It is the separative psyche with which we are familiar. This is the consciousness, which we feel, which is full of fragmentation, division, corruption. The enquiry and exploration into this “I-ness”, the “me-ness”, the “ego-ness”, the enquiry and exploration into this “I-ness” – that is called Swadhyaya! That is the beginning of Kriya Yoga.

Ishvara-pranidhana

And with this Swadhyaya the “dominant I” becomes a “sober I”. And it is not so much asserting, arrogant. And then there is the awakening of Intelligence, which remains dormant, which remains quietly in the background because of these activities of the “I”. Although this activity of the “I” is possible because of the connection of Intelligence, but of this connection we remain totally oblivious, totally unaware of that Intelligence. Now, lessening the activity of this “I” is the emergence of Intelligence. It’s the awakening of Intelligence. It’s the dawn of Intelligence. That is called Ishvara-pranidhana. That means a perception of the dimension of consciousness which is holistic! The dimension with which we are familiar is fragmented, it is divisive, whereas that one is holistic, non-divisive, non-fragmented. Awakening of that Intelligence – that is the third part. And enquiry and exploration into “I” – is the first part. That means enquiry into the chitta-vritti and then reducing the chitta-vritti – leads to resurrection of Intelligence, which remains dormant. This resurrection of Intelligence is Ishvara-pranidhana.

Tapas

In between there are certain profound practices, which are called Tapas. And this Tapas, this Yoga practice, the Kriya practice – it is not a physical fitness program as it is available in Hatha Yoga studios. Those are OK, those who need – they do it and they are available to certain physical benefit and healing. But that is sabotaged because of the psychological complications, the activities of the “I” and its constant pursuits and becoming. So unless at the outset, in the beginning, there is a psychological healing, which is Kriya Yoga, the physical healing of Hatha Yoga etc. – it does not bring that much of benefit. There has to be the benediction of Kriya Yoga at the beginning to be available to the benefit of even Hatha Yoga. And this Kriya practice here is very subtle, but very effective. Its main purpose is to release the body from the stranglehold of the mind. The mind comes from the body. If there is no body – there is no mind. But ultimately it becomes the boss of the body and it interferes in the function of the body, creating all kinds of psychosomatic problems. And the main purpose of these practices – to release this body from the domination of the mind, from the interference of the mind. And the practices are simple. It is transforming. It is not conspicuous and exciting as it is available in many peculiar Hatha Yoga postures. It is not like that. And yet, there are certain exercises through the frenulum beneath the tongue, which strengthens the glands around: thyroid, pineal, hypothalamus, pituitary. So that the glands are in command and they give instructions to the body, not thought interfering and creating a mess. Similarly there is a profound process of bringing equanimity in the separative consciousness through certain special breathing which we call Kriya Pranayama, which is not only special breathing, but also a special awareness in this central line of the sushumna. And then there are, of course, other subtle practices which can reduce the fear pollution and the pleasure pollution. They are the two main things which are the source of all corruption – fear and pleasure. And they are opposites. And we are held in the corridor of opposites! And the basic (pair of) opposites is fear and pleasure. And this practice reduces the atrophy of the brain, which has run into this atrophy because of the too much of self-centered activities, because of the neurological defect, which has produced the false division in the inner consciousness. So, that is what is happening. And therefore the Swadhyaya teachings, which are very profound but difficult to understand because of the superimposition of cultural input and conditioning... so that understanding – if that doesn’t happen, we remain in Tapas. And in due course, when the Tapas works Understanding happens. And the two together make a virtuous circle from one virtue to another virtue. In the self-centered activity there is always a vicious circle: from one vice to another vice. But here there is a virtuous circle – from one virtue to another virtue and ultimately blasting, exploding into Ishwara-pranidhana – the perception of a dimension of Awareness, which is whole, not fragmented.

Kriya Yoga Today

This, what is being done by this speaker, has been inherited from the forefathers: from father, grandfather, great grandfather, who ran into the Himalayan Mystery and Wonder. And since then it is happening. And we have not made any amendments and alterations. It is flowing in its purest form, its pristine form. Our disciples – they have taken liberty in making amendments and alterations. And in the spiritual market many things are going on under the banner of Kriya Yoga. Good luck to them! But we have nothing to do with all that. The speaker actually avoided the use of the word “Babaji”, but unfortunately the translator did that. And  the speaker  did avoid, because under the banner of “Babaji” now all kinds of stupid activities are going on in the spiritual market! All activities of the mind and its pursuits and its paradoxes and perversions are going on. My forefather called (him) Babaji because any holy man in India is called Babaji and any holy woman – Mataji. It is not all these perversions and paranoia that is going on under his name. And all kind of claims and contra-claims are going on – we are not with all that! So, that is why the speaker didn’t utter this but unfortunately the translator has uttered it. And therefore the speaker had to say all that. He says only the Himalayan mystery and wonder – that’s enough. And certain profound teachings and practices are available – that’s enough. Because the name was taken – and all kinds of activities are going on. Most horrible activities are going on under the banner of “Babaji”. Of late Babaji is appearing to every Tom, Dick and Harry and creating all kind of circus and gimmickry and peculiar things, and they are full of stories and surmises and all kinds of miracle mongering The whole spiritual market is getting suffocated by such horrible claims. And such a strange world! We’re not changing – because this activity of the illusion “I” (which) producing many, many illusions! That is how it’s going on. That is how it’s protected and preserved! It’s such a tragedy! Even under the banner of Kriya all kinds of activities are going on – tongue cleaning, nose cleaning, the shit cleaning – all kinds of things are going on in the name of the activity of Kriya. Pha...Pha...Phu...Phu...all kinds of such excited breathing in the name of “this kriya”, “that kriya”...It’s such a horror! We have nothing to do! Good luck to them! But what we are doing is what we are doing, which is known by those who are coming and some of them are really touched. And that is how the speaker is able to travel all over the world – at the invitation of those people only. They are private people. There is no organization because Truth can’t be organized. Only the ideas about truth are organized! There is no money! There is only Love! And it’s only the inspiration – that makes some people to invite the speaker and he performs in a very ordinary way, without any kind of glamour and glitter... And the speaker keeps in touch with such people through messages and in the website they are available and because it’s Truth it has no copyright. Anybody can use, misuse them, even claim that they have written them – there is no problem! But these messages are there to be in touch with those people who have come to this person. And some of the messages have been translated into the Russian language and they are published in a very beautiful book... And perhaps such a book will be given by these people to you and I can also sign it as a token of my love to you – I will do that. So now, so far this work – traveling all over the world and spreading this Energy of Understanding – this is happening for the last 22 years and so far how many people have exactly come – I can tell you because we have a Register, a Temple Register... Just open this. The Register is there. Take the register. You see, so far the last number is 15461. You see, so many people have come to the speaker. And it is the Energy of Understanding that has hit some of them. That is making the whole work going on. There is no institution, no organization, no sect, no publicity, no propaganda! It’s all very intimate, personal affair. Yes, this is the ninth volume, you see... these are the temple registers... and eight volumes are already in the temple... This is the ninth volume. And this is the last number ... if you want you can take the photo of this... And also this (picture of Ganesha).

Ganesha

This is a symbol of an icon of Indian divinity. The belief systems are peculiar – that such an icon gives prosperity to people and protection to people. But the spiritual significance is totally different. You’ll find there is a rat here sitting at the feet. So the message of this icon is – the rat is the thought and you’ve kept it in the head. And it’s always running, frightened and aggressive! That is what is making your life miserable. This icon says: “Please, for God’s sake, keep this rat at the feet for performing the daily tasks!” Only then there will be the glimpse of Divinity! Thought is division and Divinity is freedom from division! And this freedom from division – Divinity – is available then, and it is as big as the elephant. That is why at the head there is the elephant. It’s just symbolic. Where is the rat? Where is the elephant? And we’re amused in rat! We’re entertained by rat! We’re preoccupied with rat! So it says: “No, no, keep the rat there at the feet for practical reasons for food, clothes and shelter and other performances. And be available to Ishvara Pranidhana, to the Divinity in the consciousness, which means holistic awareness, which means the Otherness, the Godliness.” That is the meaning of this symbol.

Conditioning

This is of course a Hindu symbol. But the speaker is just a human being. He has nothing to do with being a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Muslim or a blah, blah, blah... There is no such thing as Hindu consciousness, and Muslim consciousness, and Christian consciousness... There is Hindu conditioning, Muslim conditioning, Christian conditioning. It’s the conditioning that separates. The holistic consciousness unites, it doesn’t separate. And that is the beauty of Creation. We’ve a unique body but it contains universal human consciousness. So much of diversity – but no division whatsoever. See, as I was saying what Kriya Yoga is so much time has gone.

Questions and Answers

And I’ve not given you any opportunity to question. And I want people to live with questions, not with conclusions, so they can ask any question. This body never repeats anything. It’s all flowering at the moment. Each flower appears to be the same but it’s not same. Thought may look similar, but it’s a new flowering. So there is no question of repetition of anything. So we’re not talking from (the dimension of) intellectual garbage and accumulation... It’s always the flow of Intelligence! Why the hell you want to repeat something!

Question: I saw the video recording of your meeting with Father Seraphim, which happened on Valaam Island. And during the talk you mentioned that the orthodox cross and the symbol of Yoga have actually the same spiritual meaning. Could you, please, explain the symbols and elucidate the spiritual phenomenon behind it.

Holy Cross

No, what was told to Father Seraphim is simply this. He was telling that in Christianity the basic concept is that “I am a sinner” and therefore “I need a Saviour”... And he asked: “What is it in the understanding of Yoga?” And the speaker said: “It’s not that “I am a sinner” or “I’m not a sinner”... These are again opposites. And the mind and “I” is always in opposites. So it’s not that “I am a sinner” or “I am not a sinner”... “I” is sin because it’s separation from Divinity, from the whole. It’s a fragment. It’s separation from Divinity and therefore it’s sin. “I” is sin. It’s not that “I am a sinner” or “I am not sinner”. And therefore the cancellation of “I” – the vertical line is “I” and the horizontal line is “cancellation” – the cancellation of “I” is the Holy Cross, that is why it’s most sacred. And that is, of course, the symbol of Yoga. Yoga means – “I” canceled. “Chitta-vritti-nirodhah.” “I” is chitta-vritti, and that is gone for Chaitanya to be. The division is gone for Divinity to be. So this is the symbol of Yoga – it’s mathematical plus sign in India. And there in the mathematical plus sign the horizontal line and the vertical line both are of the same length intersecting at the center. Here it is a little different and perhaps it’s good that it’s different! Because it’s clearly showing that the vertical line is “I” and it’s clearly showing that the horizontal line, the small line, – is the cancellation of “I”. In mathematical plus sign this cancellation of “I” is not so evident as it’s evident in the cross. That’s why the speaker said that the Cross is perhaps a better symbol of Yoga than what is available in India, what is merely a mathematical plus sign.

Question: You’re were telling during one of the programs that the freedom from division – Samadhi – can’t be perpetual, it comes in flashes, otherwise the body will not be able to take it, to endure it.

Samadhi

Actually Samadhi, the dictionary meaning of the word “Samadhi”, – is “established in the Energy of equanimity”. And whatever odd the circumstances, this equanimity is not disturbed. That perpetuity is called “nirvicalpa”. And when the Energy is there but it gets disturbed – when the challenge is so much and the situation is so adverse it gets disturbed – that is called occasional. It’s called “savicalpa”. This is the general thing about Samadhi. But there is another deeper implication of Samadhi. When the stimulus and response become one unitary movement and at that time there is a feeling that I am the whole Universe. There is no dichotomy between me and anything around. That is a very deep implication of Samadhi. It comes in a flash and it’s such an ecstasy that it’s difficult for a body to take it for a long time! See, it’s at that moment Jesus Christ said : “I and Father are One”. The Indian sages said: “Aham Brahma asmi”. The sufi mystic Al-Hallaj Ali Mansur said: “Haqq Haqq ana Al-Haqq! I’m the god! I’m the Truth!” So these are very rare moments and that is such an ecstasy that it is difficult for the body to take it. Just as the body can’t take too much pain – it drops dead, like a cancer pain. Too much pain – it drops dead. Similarly it can’t take too much joy! The limited body and joy is so immense so unlimited that in the limited it may not be possible to withhold. Therefore the body may drop dead. So that is why these are flashes. And it’s good that they are flashes. And even if the body doesn’t drop dead, people will kill. For example, Jesus was crucified. Al-Hallaj Ali Mansur was cut into pieces, and he was bleeding and he died. Many rishis also, when they said: “I’m the God!” – they were killed. So this is what is happening. That is why I said that. But that is a deeper implication of Samadhi. It’s not the ordinary Samadhi, which is the Energy of equanimity. And we have instances when the Energy is so great that even the young son died just in front in a road accident but still equanimity is not disturbed. That is one aspect of Samadhi. And this is when stimulus and response become one unitary movement. See, I’m looking at you – suddenly I find that there is no dichotomy between you and me. And actually when I’m looking at you you’re already inside me as the image on the retina. But because of certain process in our divisive consciousness there is the distance and diversity And if these processes are withheld, if they are postponed for some time suddenly there is a feeling that I and you – both are same. That means unitary movement. Your body is stimulating my retina and the response and this stimulus become same. Suddenly there is no dichotomy, no division, no distance between you and me. So that is called “stimulus and response become unitary movement”. Usually it’s not a unitary movement, it’s a dichotomy movement. When I look at you – you are there, I’m here. That is what our separative psyche does. There are some times, it happens, when this separative process is held in abeyance and at that time there is suddenly a flash that there is no division, not only between you and me – between me and everything around, all the trees, the mountains, the whole Universe.

Question: How can I understand that Universal Intelligence is acting, that non-doing is happening? The Intelligence can suddenly come, but I may not recognize it as I can use only my intellect, my mind to comprehend something. Or maybe there is some other organ by which I can cognize it, realize it, isn’t there?

Non-doer, Bhakta and Bhagawan

The question is wrong. The question is not “how”. The question is “when”. That’s what I’m saying – it’s possible when there is a fusion, mutation between the thinker and thought, the observer and observed, when there is no division. As long as division is there, observer is there, “I” is there, there is no question of that Otherness, the Awareness. This is a strange process: that “I” – when it’s fed up of its agony, suffering, pain and it somehow understands “this is not all”, “there must be something beyond all these things” – it’s getting a flash, getting a subtle awareness, a message that there must be something, that this is not all life. Life is not all these mental pollutions and therefore there is a yearning to be available to the Otherness, to the Awareness, to the Divinity, to the Non-doer. Awareness is the Non-doer, although every doing is possible because of the connection with that Awareness in the body, connection of Intelligence, the Chaitanya. Awareness means Chaitanya, Intelligence, that means Life, and that connection of Life is available in the body. And that connection is the real doer. But it’s also the non-doer because it’s directly not doing anything. It’s doing through a separative psyche “I”. And that “I” if it remains only as a coordinator, as it’s happening in the technical world, without getting into psychological registrations and entanglement, then that “I” in spite of doing will still be available to non-doership because it’s not entangling, not getting involved positively or negatively. There is choice-less-ness, withdrawal from psychological registrations, which is actually the separative process – that is not there, and therefore this “I”, although a technical coordinator, is still available to non-doership in the sense it understands that the real doer, because of which “I am able to do”, is  just sitting quietly. And whatever it’s performing – it’s performing through my karma-indriya which are  available, through other gyana-indria which are also available. By utilizing this that Non-doer is functioning, by utilizing this… And it is functioning through another “I” which is merely coordinating the knowledge. Knowledge creates this “I” and “my knowledge”, and this “I” is merely coordinating the knowledge which is stored up in the memory. So this process is happening. But to meet that Non-doer – “I” have the yearning to meet that Non-doer, that Non-doer is Divinity, and “I” has the feeling that this is the Thing and there must be a meeting between “me” and Non-doer – but that is not possible. As long as this separation is there – and awareness is whole, it’s Chaitanya, it’s not chitta-vrittiti, – as long as it’s there there is no meeting. So when the Otherness happens this-ness goes. There is no way! So all these people who say: “I’ve experienced God”, – they’re all shits! They’re all conditioned reflexes from the knowledge about God, or expectation about meeting God – the conditioned reflexes. So, this Divinity is not an experience, it’s Existence. And therefore there is no way to experience it! It’s not in the experience structure, the ego-structure. This is the beauty of the whole thing that there is a yearning created by “I” to meet the Other, the Non-“I”, the Non-doer, but when the meeting happens there is no “I” – this separative “I” is gone. So therefore this meeting is not possible and when that is possible there is total mutation and fusion, there is no separative process. So, all the stories that devotee is meeting Divinity – Bhakta and Bhagawan, their meeting, – these are all fanciful stories. There can’t be any meeting. Because when Bhagawan is there – Bhakta goes. Ha. Because as long as that Bhakta is here – it’s not Bhakta, it’s vi-bhakta. And vi-bhakta can never meet the whole, the Bhagawan. So there can’t be any meeting between “me” and God. Although “I” am seeking God, “I” am yearning for God, but when this process happens – God means “no-division” – when the process happens the divisive “I” is gone. Which means if I tell in the ordinary language that if “I” want to meet God there can never be a meeting, and if the meeting happens there is no “I”. Therefore there can’t be any meeting. This is a paradox. This is a riddle. But this is so.

Is the “I” something which exists?

You see, the content of consciousness in the outer world, for example. The consciousness of the outer world, the content is this bed. And there is a dichotomy between my body and my bed, and therefore I can use this bed. I’m sitting on the bed. And if I don’t want to use the bed, I can go and sleep on the floor. Because the dichotomy is there, between my body and the bed, I can do what I want to do. But then this “I” is just a coordinator which enables me to handle the bed, and to use the bed or not to use the bed. Because there is a dichotomy between “I” – which means this body – and the bed. But in the inner world, let’s say, I have any mental pollution, any psychological problem, say fear. “I” and fear. Is there a dichotomy? Here – I have a bed or I have no bed. But in the inner world is it that – “I have fear” or “I have no fear”? Just find out. It’s not that “I have fear” or “I have no fear”. “I” is fear! It’s the fear which is creating another fragment. Fear is full of fragmentation. It’s creating another fragmentation, which is “I”, and it’s imagining that this “I” is outside the fear. And it’s imagining that this “I” can use the fear or control the fear, just as this “I” is using the bed, controlling the bed, or not using, not controlling. But this “I” can’t do that! If “I” wants to control fear, who is controlling? The fear itself is trying to control. Because fear is “I”, “I” is fear. There are no two! This is very difficult to understand that there are no two in the inner consciousness, in the inner being! In the outer being there are two. And the “I” is very useful. But in the inner being this whole “I” is an illusion. It’s a false division, false fragmentation. And whatever “I” is doing or not doing, it’s only giving continuity to fear. When it tries to control the fear it’s only complicating the fear. This we don’t understand because of our tremendous heavy conditioning that “I” is something which exists! It does exist as a practical entity – coordinator in the outer world. But in the inner world there is no such thing. It’s a total illusion. Can this (be understood)? This is the real message of Swadhyaya, the Sankhya, the beginning of Kriya Yoga.

Does God exist?

So, now... Please, understand that “God” is not truth, but Truth is God. “God” is a lie, created by the “I’, that illusion “I” and “God” is another illusion of this “I”. And therefore these two illusions are protecting each other. So “God” is a total lie. “God” is not truth but Truth that the “I” is an illusion, which is perpetuating itself by this ultimate greed which is “God”, this ultimate garbage which is “God”, ultimate craving for permanency which is “God”... So it’s not that “God” is truth... “God” is a lie of the “I”, but Truth is God, the truth that “I” is an illusion, it is a division, it is a separation from Life. This truth is God, is Life, is Love, is Everything. Similarly, it’s not that “God” exists. “God” does not exist. But Existence is God. The essence of existence is God. “God” exists in the fascination, imagination of that illusion “I”. “God” does not exist. But the whole existence, the whole essence of eternal existence – that is God, that is Divinity. The very fact that experiencing is happening is enough proof that what you’re experiencing is not real. It’s conditioned reflexes because Reality, Divinity, it’s not experience, it’s existence. Experience is alright in technical world when you want to be a carpenter or a tailor or a publisher of a journal – there it’s ok, there the experience is alright. But experience in matters spiritual has no validity whatsoever.

Question: And what about responsibility then? If everything is done by that Doer, does it mean that we’re not responsible for anything at all?

Responsibility

People are talking about responsibility. But are they responsible? The word “responsibility” comes from the word “response” that means to be able to respond adequately. But are we responding adequately in any situation? Or we’re merely reacting? In every situation – we’re only reacting! We’re not responding. We’re only reacting from “what should be”, according to our image that this should be like this and if this is not like this we’re reacting. We’re always reacting from “what should be”. There is never a response from “what is”. And to be able to respond from “what is” – adequate response – that is the beginning of responsibility. And because of the shit mind, the shit “I”, with all its psychological registration and investment, we’re only making ourselves available to reaction. And we think we’re responsible. We’re not responsible. We’re a structure of vulgar reaction. We’re not the veracity of responsibility. This simple thing is not going into the heads of such people. Therefore they’re asking such stupid questions.

Question: Does it mean that we should act listening to our heart, being guided by love?

I and the Other

What we’re saying about “I” is not the real I. It’s merely a network of images that “I” have formed about myself or as imposed by the society, through their talks and their estimations. “I” – quote & quote I – is just a network of images. The real I is not this “I”. It’s the Chaitanya, it’s the Awareness. And when “I” am talking about my heart, it’s again my image about the heart, that “I” am having a heart, “I” am having a love! “I” am having a conception, according to some books, or according to some film which “I” have seen, and according to the emotional behavior that “I” have run into “I” think that “this is coming from my heart”. It’s all lie! All images, all activities of the “I”! When this is understood, then there is something, which is Life, which is Heart, which is Love, which is Divinity, which is Unnameable, Immeasurable. “I” can never know anything about Life. It’s Unknowable, because Life is Unlimited, it has no beginning, no end. It’s never born. It never dies. And Life is not interested in any after-life, because it does not die at all. It’s the shoddy little “I”, in order to give itself continuity it imagines things about life, about life after death and all the belief systems. All such things are that protective mechanism of that illusion that doesn’t exist. And that illusion is talking about Love and Heart. There is no way this “I” can know this. “I” must cease for the Other to be!

Video: Part I, Part II, Part III